ᴍᴇᴇᴛ ᴛʜᴇ “sᴜᴍᴍᴏɴᴇʀs”

Below you can read the transcript of the interview with the summoner group.

George Knapp   
Gentlemen, good to see you again. great to talk to you. Let’s start this way. You know, you’re all smart, educated, successful in your individual careers. Doesn’t this seem pretty wacky of a thing to consider. And were you initially worried about what it might do to you, how your co-workers, your families might see you? Jim, let’s start with you.

Jim Martin
Thanks, George. I really appreciate being here. And certainly, this was a concern of mine starting out, it sounds pretty crazy and far out. I was certainly a skeptic of this initially. But once I experienced the phenomenon, it had such a profound effect on me, there was no going back. I had to embrace this new reality.

George Knapp  
Mike, you have a Harvard degree. Good grief. Yeah, Mom, Dad, I’m going out to summon in some aliens, pull them in with my mind.

Mike Seid 
Yes, it’s a conversation around the family table that does not exactly gain me a lot of points, I can assure you. Yeah, it’s pretty bizarre. It’s probably downright, a little bit insane. I’ve had to be pretty careful about whom I share it with in the closet for a number of years, engaging with this thing and dancing with it. But Likewise, the same with Jim. And same with Jim, thank you for having us on here. And yeah, just got to the point where the experiences became too profound and too strange to continue to ignore it or to continue to treat it playfully, as Initially, it was just sort of something that that Alfa and I especially did as kind of a game or a little bit of a parlor trick even. But over time, it just became a thing that couldn’t ignore and had to engage. And so here, we’re coming out.

George Knapp  
Alfa, same question, sort of which of these guys talked you into this? And do you remember what kind of a pitch they made to you at the time?

Alfa 
I think, initially, it was Jeremy (Corbell) that introduced us to Jim. And we already were interested in the phenomenon and Mike had already, he’s kind of a first sighting, you know, after the Jeremy – John Lear interview. So I think my official career as someone who started when I went to meet up with Jim, and I managed to peg most of the orbs showing up. And, you know, Jim looked at me and he like a token wizard, sort of gave me the camera and said, look, this is a gift, I want you to start doing this, you know. So, what made it I think, easier for me to share with my friends, and especially my family added being that I’m from a different culture on top of No, it’s been crazy, a very conservative culture, which is Greece. I had my dad down in Newport Beach, and we did a sighting together. And it was unquestionable that it wasn’t a plane, a drone, or bird or anything like that. So after that, there was no more convincing for at least my family conversations.

George Knapp  
When I first heard about this, I think it was Prophet Yahweh. It was a guy named Prophet Yahweh. In the 90s, early 90s, he would send me messages that he was going to come to Las Vegas and show me how this worked. I thought it was pretty wacky. I tried to keep an open mind about these things. And we made two appointments, and he didn’t show up for either one. But somebody else on a different TV station had him out. And he pulled something in, I thought, What the heck is this? And then, you know, I kind of put it in a side box in my mind. And then Steven Greer started doing these things, charging a lot of money to go out on these adventures in the desert, charging people a lot of money to pull something in and calling them Close Encounters of the fifth kind. So I became interested but not really knowledgeable until I talked to the three of you a couple of weeks ago. How did you start Jim, and how quickly did you get results?

Jim Martin  
Thanks, George, for that question. You know, I started by joining a local group in Los Angeles that was hosted by Robert Bangham called L.A. UFO Meetup and this was in early 2012. At the time, there is historic sightings happening over downtown Los Angeles. Numerous sightings, about 50 people get together every weekend in the park and we generate these phenomenal sightings and record them. So I then trained with Robert on my own for a couple months just taking lessons with the two of us. He taught me how to utilize my consciousness to make these contacts and then the sightings became more and more intense and more frequent. And then we kind of moved on with this group and the crowds became bigger and bigger as we went.

George Knapp
And can anybody do it?

Jim Martin  
Anybody can do it. You don’t need a guru or a teacher, you don’t need to have any background in religion or philosophy, you just need to have an open heart, look to the sky with gratitude. And I think the most important thing is to just have a sincere intention to make contact, and it does work.

George Knapp
Mike, do you have a theory on why it works?

Mike Seid  
Quite a number, we’ve been sort of trying to figure that out for the last number of years. Some people suspect that these are crafts that are coming in from elsewhere, and they’re tuned into our consciousness. Increasingly, I’m more of the mind that we’re engaging with the sort of fabric of reality through our consciousness, right? The consciousness is sort of the seat of our relationship with the universe and consciousness is king, so to speak. So if you bring something into your consciousness, then that has the capacity to have an effect on the environment around you. So increasingly, I’m of that opinion, and have some backup with either ancient or more contemporary scriptures or belief systems that seem to support that. But that’s the sort of difficult point that I’ve arrived that after a great deal of skepticism, confusion, bafflement, perplexity, and reluctance. But that’s where I am. Yeah.

George Knapp  
Alfa, the UFO topic and the summoning, of course, seem to be related. We’re not quite sure. It’s the same thing. I mean, the things that you guys see are not necessarily structured craft, like the military has been photographing. What do you think they are?

Alfa 
Since we’ve been doing with Mikey, we’ve kind of both concluded is certainly linked with consciousness. But to start with, I also have an opinion that Jim had formulated over the years that, you know, I approached like a scientist, so I kind of assumed that these things are living things, they just behaved like things in the sky that you could study. And it just kind of helped me quell my doubt a little bit. Because that way, I could actually, you know, try different settings on my camera, try to see if there’s like different behaviors, if they come in different patterns. But over and over, it just seemed that what Jim said, which is the level of like having an open mind to heart and gratitude, to say something that doesn’t sound scientific, all of a sudden, gratitude seems to have been a pool, like a magnet for these sightings. And I’ve come to the conclusion, they’re linked to consciousness.

George Knapp 
Jim, walk us through it, how does it work? We want to go out here in the desert somewhere and communicate, what do you do? What are the steps?

Jim Martin 
Certainly, George, well, I think it’s helpful just to start the process by doing a simple meditation just to clear your mind clear your thoughts, try to get into a calm state. And then I really do think it’s important to focus on that feeling of gratitude, of just being grateful to make contact and to be in this position. Now, the protocols themselves are very simple, I was taught to just simply go outside focus on a point in the sky very intensely. And I’ll concentrate my stare on that point for a good minute or two, just seeing as far as I can into space with my consciousness. And then I transmit the thought to please come or to show me the truth to make contact, and then I pull out, I let go, and I typically wait a few minutes, and then the phenomenon will usually manifest in the sky.

George Knapp 
Usually, I mean, 50% 60% 80?

Jim Martin 
Well, a lot of it depends on where you do the protocols. When you have a lot of activity over a particular place, you create a window of activity, as I’m sure you’ve seen at Skinwalker Ranch. So at my house or my apartment, these are windows of high windows have activity. So typically, I would say 60 to 70% of the time I got my backyard, apply my thought and have a visual response in the sky to confirm that we are interacting with each other.

George Knapp 
Mike, I imagine it gets frustrating if it doesn’t work. You go out there, you spend some time, you feel kind of goofy, maybe in the beginning at least and then nothing shows up. Do you blame yourself when that happens?

Mike Seid  
Yes and no? Well, I would say two things. One is that one of the wonderful benefits of the practice is, even if you don’t get anything in the sky, you’ve gone outside, you’ve expressed gratitude, and you’ve looked up at the sky, which is something that very few people can do if they’re not birdwatchers or otherwise engaged in this. So the practice itself, even if it doesn’t yield immediate results is exceedingly, sort of calming and beneficial. But yeah, I mean, there are moments of frustration where you start to question yourself, where you start to wonder, am I not seeing anything because this is insane, or am I not seeing anything because I have not been grateful enough or certainly the monkey mind starts to spin and you can start to wonder. But if you approach it as just a, like a practice of acknowledgement and gratitude and looking up and wonder, then even if you don’t get anything, it usually produces a pretty beneficial effect on your day.

George Knapp   
You’ve studied a lot of ancient languages, religious texts, religious scholars, and writings. Is this consistent? Is there anything like it in prehistory or earlier in human history?

Mike Seid 
I would give a resounding yes. I mean, obviously, a lot of people watch Ancient Aliens, I’m primarily schooled in the Old Testament, and they’re, you know, this pillar of cloud and the pillar of fire that the Israelites were following through the desert, I can’t really come up with a much different explanation for it than that is all consciousness was guiding them, and they were seeing something not so distinct from what we’re seeing. And over the course of the pandemic, often I have been reading the Gospels, the New Testament in Greek and have been just blown away by some of the lines of Christ Consciousness saying, if you want the mountain to come down and think it in the mountain will fall this notion of interjecting your will. And the universe responding is something that is rife through all classical traditions, I would argue,

George Knapp 
Alfa, can you walk us through the first one that was successful for you, how it worked and how you felt, and what you saw?

Alfa 
The first one was actually with me, Jeremy and Mike, what was intriguing at the time, as we just were looking up at the sky, part of the technique of Jim applied, meaning I would focus on the single point, I would try to change my focus from close to faraway. And I was trying to sort of tune in and at a certain point, I mean, again, this does not sound scientific, but I felt it was in a certain region of the sky. So I turned my head. And sure enough, right there in focus, it was just a bright little orb floating in the sky. So it was very just hard to categorize initially, for me, so much so that I started even taking account of the types of different feeling I would have every time I would get a sighting. So not just the behavior and the weather and the patterns, but also like, how did I actually feel every time I see it? And sure enough, the technique eventually honed into, if you’re feeling gratitude, more chances to see one than not see one.

George Knapp  
And you know, after you successfully see one, and then you start seeing more? Does it change your view of reality, the universe, the cosmos, yourself?

Alfa  
I think what really did it for me, was to be able to share it with people that were highly skeptical. And for them to be able to physically see it, and see the various reactions of each one. I think that’s what changed me because what I realized, and we’ve always discussed with Mike is, it is not a guarantee will change people’s lives. I mean, as strange as that sounds, some people just say for five minutes, they acknowledge it. They say, yeah, it’s not a plane and it’s not a bird, well that’s fascinating, and they just go back to their lives, right? For me. Yes, he had a tremendous and profound effect about how I view the world what I consider my perception to be how it changed me inside. So he just doesn’t touch everyone the same way.

George Knapp 
Jim, let’s talk about some specifics. So these are not just things you see with your eyes, although a lot of times you see them, but you can record that and record some pretty dramatic episodes and incidents on infrared. Let’s walk through some you’ve got one that let’s call the mothership fleet. Tell us about that video, October 2017, what the circumstances were, where you were, and what you saw.

Jim Martin  
Certainly thanks, George for asking about that sighting. That’s probably the best recording I’ve shot to date. And this took place at Long Beach in Long Beach, California. I just purchased a new home there and I was in my backyard, just doing yard work. Actually one day when I looked up and saw this tremendous blob of light in the sky, this huge white elongated light. And this looked a little different than most of the normal objects I see which are typically orbs or circular objects. This was kind of like an elongated tube. Now when I saw this object, I immediately grabbed my camera which is an infrared recording camera. I use a Canon sX 60, which has been modified to record in full spectrum to see these other ranges of light that we can’t see with our eyes. So once I put the camera on this big, glowing light in the sky, all these smaller orbs were released from the object, which was just fascinating. And I’ll add the first three objects that came out of this portable light were in a triangular formation, which is very rare and also a commonality in these sightings for me.

George Knapp
Those triangle then formed like sort of a vertical line that changed shapes to. So what was that display about? What was going on there?
Jim Martin 
I think it’s just, I’m someone who avidly records these anomalies, I share them with the public. And I believe the more that you record them, the better the performances get. So in this case, I’d been recording for about eight or nine years before I had this recording. And I just believe it wanted to share that moment with me on film to share with the world. And then the more important point is this triangular formation of objects that came out in the beginning, I’ve had three other sightings that were also triangular formations. And that’s a way for us to communicate with each other to know that we are interacting, and it’s kind of a basic form of visual display that we communicate with.

George Knapp   
You had a second one that was another one that featured on your site, on your, your website link from March of 2017. These five green lights, that video has been shared all over the world. What the heck was that thing?

Jim Martin 
Thanks, George. Yeah, that was a really profound sighting. And it was actually a close range sighting. It was about 50 feet off the ground at my office in Newport Beach. And I saw this tremendously large object hovering right near in my backyard of five green spears with a black tower on top of these spheres.

This tower was about 20 feet tall, and it was the strangest object I’ve ever seen in my life with close range. Now, I had the opportunity to film this very close, but when I put the camera on it, and I hit record, my HD card was full. And so I panicked. And I started erasing all the files from my camera trying to capture this anomaly at a close range. By the time I erased these files it had traversed across the yard into the upper atmosphere. And that’s when I finally got the lens on it. But as you can see, it performs all types of unusual maneuvers that had spotlights and it’s something I saw a close range so I can verify that it was truly an anomaly.

George Knapp  
Mike, what was your sighting, the first one that you felt you pulled in? Were you with a group? Does it work better with a group? And can you describe what it was that you saw?

Mike Seid  
For sure George. The first one had to be well, the way I got introduced to this entire practice. You mentioned the Prophet, Jeremy Corbell, who’s a luminary in the field of UFOlogy now, he was approached by a young man who claimed that he could summon UFOs. And when Jeremy, and he used the Hebrew Bible, which is what the Prophet would use to engage with them. So Jeremy thought, Mike, you really need to meet this guy after they had a few sessions together in which the young man had summoned and then an object had appeared. So we got together. And I think a lot of what transpired in our interaction with one another, we didn’t get any orbs when we summoned together. But he introduced me to the idea that this was possible. And a lot of people say that Seeing is believing. But I think in this case, believing in certain ways, is seeing, it’s once you open yourself to the possibility that can happen, then you’ll start to notice that it does happen. So a few weeks later, I was just on the telephone with the producer that I was doing a project with and for whatever reason, I decided to go outside. I just had a sense that I don’t know I wanted to look at the sky. And just out of the middle of a massive sky I managed to pinpoint on this tiny white dot. You know, we’d like to say they look almost like off duty stars. I only see them during the day. Jim is a master summoner who gets them both day and night. He’s amphibious that way. But I get them during the day and it looks like a tiny glowing self luminous metallic orb and at the time I called Jeremy and he happened to be filming at the moment with John Lear, the godfather of conspiracy. And I told him Jeremy, I’m seeing one of these things. I’m looking at one and other people were walking down the street and they’re like, What are you looking at up there? And then I pointed and they said How the hell did you even see that? I just kind of shrugged but John Lear said, Mikey, tell him to come to John Lear’s house in Las Vegas, Nevada. They know where I live. And he got out of his chair and went outside to the yard and he’d started looking up. To the best of my knowledge, they did not visit him in Las Vegas. But that initiated me into this entirely new form of engagement with the atmosphere.

George Knapp   
Well, I can confirm part of that story. They do know where he lives. Alfa, are you the one who had a sighting underwater in the Greek islands?

Alfa  
This might be my most important sighting just because it sort of removed any possible doubt of what I was seeing was linked to consciousness or not. So we were at a low moment with Mike because we had just purchased brand new equipment and we’re getting a lot of balloons. And as I said, we’ve always been very diligent and like being able to remove some of those variables to make sure that what we’re seeing is an actual anomaly. And at the time I’d planned to leave for Greece. And I know I was going to a destination that, you know, been going for many years. And it’s very, very far away from any sort of, it’s a no fly zone, first of all, and there’s no balloons in the hundreds of 1000s of miles around. And I just decided to do my technique there. But as a twist, because I had already had some no luck with it, I decided to just free dive, go underwater. I was stable, I was holding a line that was shut down to around 40 meters. So I’ll run 100 feet or plus. And I was in a substantial depth where I could come here out in the blackness. And I, you know, I’m pretty good in the techniques, I stayed roughly for like a minute underwater. And within those first 30 seconds, sure enough, out of the blue, it popped in exactly the same way pops in the sky, but underwater. And I made everything, I made sure my mask was clear, I blew it out again, you know, I blinked, I tried to like make sure like change angles, see if I’m not seeing things, but it’s a fixed point in the bottom of the ocean or near the bottom of the ocean and not moving just right when I finished my meditation technique. So that act to me removed any sort of doubt if these things are linked to consciousness or not.

George Knapp 
And Jim, I know a lot of the videos that you have captured, they start out of these small orbs, they would be hard to see up in the sky unless you’re really paying attention. And then they morph into something, big blobs and sometimes spit things out. Do you think that they’re up there all the time, or maybe down here among us, not just in the sky, and we’re just not looking for them? We’re not using infrared to try to discern them.

Jim Martin
I think that’s right, George, I think they are around us all the time, they likely live in the upper atmosphere or in the oceans. And I think they’re outside of our visible range of light. So if you’re not looking for them, or you’re not utilizing, looking for them with infrared equipment, you will just not notice how present they are around us. And the more I’ve recorded particularly with using infrared, the more shocked I’ve become just by how present they are in our atmosphere. And again, I want to make the point that I believe a lot of these biological a lot of these UFOs are biological life forms that I think live in our upper atmosphere. And I think there’s two types of UFOs machine UFOs that are intelligently engineered with maybe alien hardware, then some kind of natural life form that is yet to be discovered. And the last thing I want to close on is Kenneth Arnold, the founder of the term, you know, flying saucer, came to the same conclusion. After 14 years of research he reported in 1962 in Flying Saucer Magazine that he thought these unidentified flying objects were not spaceships from space, when in fact groups and masses of living organisms in our upper atmosphere. And he thought the only difference between these organisms in the upper atmosphere and oceanic life was their ability to change their density at will, which comes back to your point about the morphing nature of the objects and their ability to change their shape at will.

George Knapp
You know, a couple of years ago, I mentioned this when we spoke a few weeks ago that I saw this article, The New York Times article, I think it was reprinted in the LA Times and it’s talking about summoners. And there’s a photo and as I’m thinking to myself about the article, Oh man, this is going to be ugly, this New York Times is going to carve these guys up. And then I look at the photo, you guys, it’s you guys and tell me about that experience, Mike and dealing with that New York Times reporter I would think all three of you would be very reluctant to invite somebody like that into this experience, because you know, you’re gonna get your legs chopped off.

Mike Seid 
Yeah, I think I mean, Jim had much more personal contact with the reporter than we did. We were present for a couple of the instances in which the reporter was there observing people summoning Yeah, this was at a time where I would have been very reluctant to speak on the record about this subject. But yeah, obviously, one’s natural assumption about the UFO field for many, many years is that it’s just exposes you to ridicule and derision and contempt, obviously, largely through the work of you, George and Jeremy and others these days that’s shifting markedly and to the point that the window of contemplation of these subjects has gone through a sea change in the last months, I would let Jim speak more about the relationship with the with the reporter, I would just add, maybe one thing you were asking what these things are, I was, you know, defer to Jim entirely as a as a summoner. As one who engages with this phenomenon. I think I’m less inclined, though to think that they’re either craft or biological entities. They might be certainly, but increasingly I’m of the mind that the universe is winking at you. That it’s somehow part of the sky in which you have some engagement or investment is sending a little nod that says, I hear you. I know that. I know what you’re saying. And if I may, I just wanted to add one last quotation about that, which is Carl Jung, said in his beautiful book about flying saucers in the introduction, he said, ‘The conclusion is, there it is. The conclusion is something is seen. But one doesn’t know what. It is difficult, if not impossible to form any correct idea of these objects, because they behave not like bodies, but like weightless thoughts.’ And that’s my sense more and more is that they feel almost as though they’re little thought bubbles.

George Knapp  
Alfa talk to me about, you also, I would think, would be a little little bit leery of something like the New York Times coming in to cover this. I don’t know if there’s been other media coverage of you guys, has there? And in the end, were you pleased with what came out?

Alfa 
I will start from the end. Yeah, I was certainly pleased that came out. As Jim, I was surprised to see how, you know, favorable the article was and how open minded it was. And the reporter made sure to be sort of very diligent and actually really cared and looked into not only the meetups, with the phenomenon itself, during that day, I personally had at least five sightings. And I had the ability to confirm them through this gentleman that had a camera link to a telescope and could get ultra zoom levels of like clarity and sort of see the object a little more, obviously larger and a little more clear. And, you know, I could certainly verify that we’re not alone. So that sort of added in removing even further doubt. But as Mike said, it was a moment in our summoning career that we were really open about talking about them or sharing them and stuff. So it really felt good to be around a group of people that we didn’t have to make up for they could openly talk about and share. So and as Mike mentioned, you know, the fact that your work and Jeremy’s work has kind of allowed people to even have that conversation is just a really, really refreshing and hopefully will get us more sightings actually.

George Knapp 
Jim, the same question about the New York Times, I probably should have given you that one. Since you were working directly with them. You had to be wary of that encounter. You had to be happy with the result. In general, are you able to get other media coverage now with the whole world going UFO crazy.

Jim Martin
Certainly. I mean, the New York Times article set the stage for us, the reporter to her credit, Rozette Rago, was a wonderful woman who approached us with a very open mind. And you know, as I mentioned, on Coast to Coast, we did multiple events with her where she came, participated, and experienced phenomenon for herself. So that’s why we believe the article was favorable. She just couldn’t deny that there were anomalous objects appearing when we gathered together. Secondly, I think that yes, we’ve had a lot of uptick in our recordings being shared and just interest in this phenomenon as the press has picked it up. Paranormal Caught on Camera featured a number of my recordings, Travel Channel, and now with you and Jeremy elevating this like never before the platform is bigger than ever.

George Knapp  
So each of you, I’ll start with you, Jim, then Mike, and then Alfa, where do you want to take it? What comes next? How can people help you? How can they learn? How can they can contact you?

Jim Martin  
Well, they can contact me at my YouTube channel, infamous fan club, and I’d love to hear from you or see any of your recordings. We also have a Twitter account called Orb Summoners, where you can reach us as well. But really, my goal is to show that if myself with just one camera can document hundreds of recordings and share them with the world. If we all come together and do this, there will be quantum leaps and what we understand about this phenomenon. Anyone can do it, anyone can produce the phenomenon and just very basic recording devices, you can capture it on film, and then share your experiences

George Knapp  
Mike, you’re out of the closet on this now. So you want to share this, you think a lot of people can benefit from knowing about it. We don’t need congressional hearings, we don’t need the Pentagon to cough up some files, that this is available to anyone.

Mike Seid  
It really is George and I am in fact out. And I would encourage everyone to just go out and try to experience it because what you’ll find is that if you keep your appointment with wonder, then the wonder will reveal itself to you. And yeah, right now I’m engaged in putting together a book about this topic. And I’m very eager to get it done. I’m devoting myself to that so and yeah, so we’ve started this Twitter handle orb summoners and we encourage everybody who has experiences or has questions to reach out to us. The more people that are engaged with this, we think the more that it will become … the more that the phenomenon will reveal itself. And that’s precisely what we want. We want people to engage and people to experience a sense of awe. And it’s changed my life. And I would encourage others to give it a whirl also.

George Knapp
Same kind of question Alfa, do you consider yourself a disciple of summoning?

Alfa  
At this point, I mean, other than Jim, that we’ve repeatedly said he’s mastering this, I consider myself a disciple of consciousness studies. I want to find out how this phenomenon fits in with the rest of my interest, be they out of body experiences, or by energy, and ultimately, even the nature of consciousness. We’re intending with Mike to put together a podcast that won’t exclusively be about orbs, but it will definitely include that topic. And we want to have sort of a conversational tone about it and bring in aspects of high science and high literature all tied together in a very sort of interesting one hour episode style show. So I’m really looking forward to that. And then lastly, I’m actually moving on to that very island that had the sighting. And I’m going to be probably staying there for an entire year, where I’m planning to devote myself entirely to the meditation aspect of it to get more sightings recorded on video and both photo, potentially also write, create a journal about it that I could share with others. And just really get down to the bottom of this, I’m really, really fascinated with the whole subject.

George Knapp  
We have about six minutes left. So I’d like to give each of you in like two minutes, anything we didn’t cover in this discussion, anything it might convey to the audience. And Jim, let’s start with you.

Jim Martin  
Well, I just would encourage the audience to go outside and try this for yourself. No one needs to give you disclosure, or you don’t need a government to tell you what it is or how it is you just need to go in your backyard, apply these protocols, use an open heart, use gratitude, and just go outside and do it. And you’ll be really surprised at what happens it will change your perspective, you’ll be doing the world a favor by sharing this phenomenon. And again, anyone can do it. There’s no special power to this. It’s just simply the act of doing it and believing that you can succeed.

George Knapp 
Mike, same thing, any closing thoughts or something we missed an incident or occurrence or philosophy or whatever?

Mike Seid  
Um, I guess what I would probably say is that, you know, I think engaging with the possibility of this certainly confirms the old Shakespearean adage that there is much more in heaven and earth than is dreamt of in your philosophy. I think the more one wrestles and tangles and rejoices and luxuriate in this, just the more your entire sense of what is possible will just shatter and then open. It’s truly a mesmerizing bizarre, confusing experience, but a really meaningful one. So I would encourage everyone to try and reach out to us with your experiences.

Alfa 
Well, similarly to the other guys, the only thing I want to add is that I’ve used for a long time sort of a scientific approach to this. And it just feels that the mechanism assignment itself becomes too reductive to encompass the entire aspect of the phenomenon. So I’m just starting increasingly to be a participatory research meaning using my consciousness to study the field of consciousness, which I think this phenomenon is part of, and I’ve also turned to sacred text and religious studies. And I want to just leave us with a quote that I found, you know, 1000s of years old, from Lao Tzu, the Tao. And he mentioned something that I think directly links itself to the phenomenon. And he says, and I’m reading it, ‘the Dao that can be told is not the eternal Dao. The name that can be named is not a terminal name. Ever desireless one can see the mystery, ever desiring one can see the manifestations. This is the gate to all mystery.’ That’s that.

George Knapp 
That’s pretty good. Guys, this is a fun conversation. We’ll do it again. Mike, when your book comes out. Alpha when you come back from your year on your island, and Jim, whatever you’re producing. You’re welcome here anytime.

Mike Seid  
Thank you, George.

George Knapp  
Thank you, guys.